Cemil Bayık said that “The revolution of Rojava created a hope for the Kurds, for those struggling for democracy and freedom, for women’s freedom, for social ecology,”
In the third and last part of this in-depth interview, Cemil Bayık, co-chair of the KCK Executive Council, spoke about the Rojava revolution.
The first part of this interview can be read here, and the second here.
Looking at past experiences, similar processes have been disrupted several times, and, for example, Erdoğan has already once overturned the table. Do you think the state is really willing to solve this problem at the moment? If they are really willing, why are occupation operations still continuing in some areas?
The AKP is in power with the support of the MHP. When something suits their purposes and desires, nothing stands in their way; they do what they want. However, when something does not suit their purposes or serve them, they trample on any law in their way and still do whatever they want. If they truly want to get Turkey out of its difficulties and hardships—as Bahçeli said in his statement, “there is a survival issue”—the way to do this is not to deceive, arrest, or oppress people. They need to give up all of this. Turkey cannot get out of the “survival issue” in this way. If they change their mindset, abandon the practices they have been pursuing based on this mindset, adhere to the law, adhere to justice, take into account the demands of the Kurdish people, the demands of Turkish leftists, democrats, and intellectuals, and take steps accordingly, only then can they solve the problems. This will also be good for them. Everything they have done so far has been for their own power, to strengthen their own power. Because they have become very weak, they want to get out of this situation. They cannot get out of this situation by using pressure. They cannot get out of it by making arrests. In Istanbul, the police are attacking people listening to Kurdish music, injuring a woman so severely she had to be hospitalized. Is this how they will solve the problems, gain people’s acceptance, and strengthen their power? If they think so, they are fooling themselves. This way, they are weakening their power even further. They must try to win over the people, they must try to win over democratic forces, they must abandon their policies, and they must stop dividing society. They must not take some people on their side and others against them.
From their current approach, we understand that they are only calculating to keep their own power. This is wrong. It won’t work out for them. Essentially, they are causing the greatest harm to Turkey in this way. I call on them to abandon this policy and adopt a democratic policy. This needs to be developed. This is where their gain, and everyone’s gain, lies.
I would also like to talk about the situation in Syria and Rojava. It is the anniversary of the Rojava Revolution. What stage has the revolution reached? What is the situation of the Kurds and the other peoples in the region? There is chaos at the moment, and clashes break out from time to time. What are your views on the new government, Syria, and Rojava in general?
The revolution of Rojava created hope for the Kurds, for those struggling for democracy and freedom, for women’s freedom, for social ecology, in other words, for everyone who stands against oppression and injustice. They say that the model developed in Rojava should be adopted both in Syria and generally in the region. Everyone is assessing it like this, and it is definitely true. Despite all its shortcomings, an alternative model has been developed in Rojava; it has been developed in line with Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Öcalan’s ideas. His efforts are at the heart of this revolution because he struggled there for years. Many of our people there stayed with him, met with him, and held meetings with him. So, if there has been a change in the people, if there has been an awakening, it is the result of Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Öcalan’s work. This is why the people of Rojava stand by Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Öcalan today. Because Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Öcalan served them. As a result of this service, the Rojava revolution developed. This revolution did not develop on its own, out of nowhere. It had a concrete foundation. Who built this foundation? Whoever researches Rojava will stumble across the reality of Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Öcalan. Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Öcalan’s ideas have developed this revolution.
Again, the Kurdish Women’s Movement is an example to all women in the world. If one wants to understand how such a movement developed among the Kurds and does the corresponding research, she/he will again see that the foundation of it was laid by Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Öcalan. If there has been a change in mentality and practice in Rojava, if there has been a change in the people, in women, if the Democratic Nation has developed, if the people are living accordingly, this is very important. Are there shortcomings? Of course there are, but the Revolution in Rojava is still a model for everyone. If they want to solve Syria’s problems, they can do so with this model. In other words, if they continue to base themselves on the nation state model, as they did in the past with the Baath regime, they will not be able to solve Syria’s problems. In that case, there will be war, fragmentation, massacres, and assimilation. They will never be able to ensure the unity of Syria or the unity of the Syrian people. However, with the Rojava model, they can ensure both. Only this model can bring democracy and freedom. Through it everyone will be able to express themselves, organize themselves, and fulfill their responsibilities to other peoples in their own language, identity, will, and culture. Syria can only get out of this bad situation in this way.
Rojava is fighting for the development of a democratic Syria and paying the price. However, those who came to power in place of the Baath regime are still based on the ideas of the Baath regime. They are based on racism and nationalism. They want to melt everyone into the nation state and make them uniform. This is where the problems originated. They want the problems to continue. Who is in power in Syria right now? Al-Qaeda. Who brought them to power? The US and the UK did. They did the same in Afghanistan. Now they are doing it in Syria. They claim to be against Al-Qaeda and ISIS. Yet, they present this regime to everyone and force them to accept it. In other words, they are telling people to legitimize ISIS and Al-Qaeda. How can this be right? The peoples have stood up against the nation state for years; they have stood up against the Baath regime. Is that why they stood up? This plan will not work. They say that there must be integration, but what they mean by integration is that everyone—Kurds, Druze, Alevis—has to give up their own identity, deny themselves, join this regime, and be fully assimilated. That is how they see integration. The integration that Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Öcalan and our movement are based on has nothing to do with this. We are talking about democratic integration. The state and democracy must accept each other and live together. The state will accept democracy, and democracy will accept the state.
What does democracy mean? It means that the Kurdish people, the Syriac, Armenian, Druze, Alevi, and all the other peoples and communities should be able to express themselves and organize themselves with their own identity, culture, and will. Just as they take responsibility for themselves, they should also take responsibility for the state, and the state should approach the peoples with the same responsibility. Only then can they live in peace. Unity is achieved this way; it cannot be achieved by force or destruction; it is achieved on a voluntary basis. Voluntary unity is only possible if you recognize the other side, their will, their culture, and their organization. No one will accept anyone else through killing, assimilation, or forced migration. They have been doing this for years. Rojava and the PKK have fought against this. They need to learn from this. It cannot be achieved through force or by saying, “Denounce yourselves.” Rojava does not accept this, nor should it. If they continue this policy, Rojava, the Druze, the Alevis, all Arabs who do not accept ISIS and HTŞ, Christians, and everyone can join hands and develop a democratic Syria. They can make their own laws and stand together against the oppression of Al-Qaeda’s rule. Only in this way can they achieve results.
Tom Barrack just recently made a statement regarding the situation in Syria. He said that “the Kurds”, that is, the SDF, should not have any demands on creating a separate Kurdistan. As Barrack is aware, they do not have such demands anyway; still, why did he send such a message at such a time?
While assessing right now, I might not have mentioned Barrack’s name, but what I was referring to was also his ideas and practices. As a Lebanese Christian, he is pursuing a policy on behalf of the US. There are many allegations about him; research has been done, and he fully serves capitalist modernity. He says that the administration of Rojava, North and East Syria, must completely eliminate itself and join the Damascus administration, becoming part of it. He says, “One state, one nation, one country, one flag.” Just like the Turkish state. The Turkish state has pursued this policy for years, but what has it achieved? Today, the Turkish state has reached a dead end because of this policy. It wants to get out of this situation through an alliance with the Kurds. They wanted to eliminate the Kurds, but they eliminated their own foundation. Now they have had to admit their failure. The same thing is happening in Syria. They keep saying “one, one,” they want a nation state. How do they expect people to accept this? This is not possible. If they continue to insist on this policy, the democratic forces in Syria must form a common front and build up their own laws. They must develop a common struggle for a free and democratic Syria.
You already mentioned the international powers; the Kurdish issue is a 100-year-old problem. The international powers had a decisive hand in creating this problem. They made the Sykes-Picot-Agreement and later created the Treaty of Lausanne. How can a solution without their approval be achieved?
The Sykes-Picot Agreement, the Treaty of Lausanne, and all of that have failed. Seeing that these have been defeated, the so-called Arab Spring developed in the Middle East. Those who developed Sykes-Picot did this. They wanted to reorganize the Middle East once again according to their own interests. However, no matter how many steps they took, they got stuck in Syria. The Baath regime blocked them. They realized that they could not reorganize their interests in the Middle East unless they removed the Baath regime from power. If there has been a change or transformation in Syria, this is the reason. To untie this knot, they focused on change. They wanted to clear the way and reorganize the Middle East based on their interests. They are currently developing a war on this basis. This is the purpose of the changes they have made. This is, of course, a dangerous situation for the peoples of the region. The peoples of the region have suffered greatly from it, both Arabs and Kurds. They were torn apart. They have suffered greatly and paid a heavy price. They must not accept this now. They must not accept the new alliances that have replaced the failed ones. Because they want to reorganize the Middle East for their own interests against those of the peoples.
The system that Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Öcalan is currently developing for the Middle East is for this reason. In the Middle East, all kinds of religions, beliefs, ethnicities, and cultures are pitted against each other by foreign forces; the people must put a stop to this. Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Öcalan is developing initiatives not only for the Kurds and the peoples of Turkey, but for all the peoples of the Middle East. Because there is currently a huge intervention in the Middle East. He has intervened in both our movement and the Turkish state, and he is also intervening in the Middle East. What does he want to achieve with these interventions? He does not want the peoples to further experience dark days, massacres, and suffering. They should live together freely and democratically. Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Öcalan has developed a system to create a solution for this. This is the system of the Democratic Nation. The Rojava model is based on this system, despite all its shortcomings. Everyone who wants to escape war and live democratically and freely should take the Rojava model as a basis and spread this model in Syria and beyond.
Reaching the end of our conversation, is there anything else you would like to add? A message to the peoples of Kurdistan and Turkey?
What I would say to the peoples of Turkey and Kurdistan is that they must embrace the initiative developed by Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Öcalan. Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Öcalan made a historical call, and not only that, he has taken many unilateral steps to put this into practice. Everyone should know that it cannot be done with Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Öcalan alone. Everyone demanding democracy and freedom in Turkey, that the Kurdish question be resolved, must embrace this initiative. In other words, everyone should work to put it into practice. Don’t just make statements; don’t say, ‘This initiative is good, but we have our doubts.’ Yes, there may be doubts. The actions of the Turkish state and the government create doubts. They did so in the past, and they do so now, but work must be done to eliminate these doubts. As long as no work is done, these doubts will continue, and perhaps new doubts will arise. If one wants to eliminate these doubts, then work needs to be done. One must support the steps taken by Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Öcalan and work to make them happen. One must put pressure on the state and the AKP government. When they feel pressure, they will be forced to take steps; if there is no pressure, they will not take any steps.
The only thing they want is for this movement to lay down its arms. They have no concern for solving the Kurdish question or the issues of democracy and freedom in Turkey. These also must be resolved. How will the peoples of Turkey—socialists, democrats, liberals, those opposed to the government, and those who want their economic and cultural issues resolved—achieve this? Only by supporting this initiative, exerting pressure on the government, and forcing the state and the government to change their laws and mindset will these issues be resolved. This is everyone’s duty. This is not just an issue for the Kurdish and Turkish peoples. Everyone must take responsibility in this process. Abroad, in Europe, Kurds, wherever they are, must take action themselves and mobilize their international friends. If they exert pressure, then the Turkish state will be forced to take steps toward democracy and freedom. Then the demands and expectations will be met, and the doubts will disappear.
The steps taken by Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Öcalan will not yield results if they are limited to him alone. Kurdish people’s leader Abdullah Öcalan has done a great deal of work on his own. He has taken all the steps he could take, and now it is up to those who say they are democrats, freedom fighters, and want the problems in Turkey to be solved and democracy to prevail to complete these steps. The responsibility now lies with them. If you force the Turkish state, it will take action; otherwise, it will not. Nelson Mandela in South Africa also achieved results in this way. If they had not fought, they would not have achieved results. We must also draw conclusions from this
